An internationalized but non-westernized shogi set
Hi everyone! I've been working on a new internationalized shogi set... I've always admired Hidetchi's set because of its beauty, simplicity, and how well it demonstrates movement. However, a number of players do not like such sets because of the westernized feeling, that using such pieces try too much to be like chess and lose what it is to be shogi.
So my goal is to create something in between, something that does what Hidetchi's set does, but does not rely on European-style chess pieces when possible (for example all the Catholic references).
Here is a picture of one of the set in plastic form (as opposed to wooden form): https://i.imgtc.ws/cRH55Gg.png
And here is an explanation of the set: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ot5l0ja3u7fk3r9/Internationalized%20Shogi.pdf?dl=0
Any feedback is appreciated!
If anyone wanted to know what it would be like if Donald Trump played shogi, we have exhibit A below, replete with narcissistic and fact-twisting rants. Only thing missing is the Twitter handle.
>>6 CouchTomato said:
>OH brother. It's because of people like captbirdseye that the international shogi community is as small as it is today...
Yet, when commenting on my Shogi material, other people have said:
...the pdf download of "A Brief Introduction to Shogi" appears to be exactly what I was looking for...
...This is awesome...
...Great Archive! The quality of the PDF documents is superb!...
...amazing! Appreciate that you share your work...
...I really appreciate this!...
...Thank you, what a great resource...
...thank you for making so much content available in a very readable PDF format...
...What an absolutely fantastic resource you have posted. With emphasis, thank you...
Would you care to reconcile those views with your own (which are, of course, coloured by the fact that you simply can't take criticism of your Komic-Kuts-Kiddie-Kartoon style pieces, even after having asked for it)?
I thought your comment was so funny that I've now included it in my "Introduction to Shogi" - so you have gained an international reputation - of a sort...
Sorry - mis-post and can't see how to delete...
Very nice!
I think we need to recognize two phases of getting interested in Shogi. The first phase is before you have even tried it and when you are scared of the Kanji. The second phase is when you have played one or two games and learned to recognize the Kanji and how the pieces move. It is not difficult to get through the second phase, but most people don't get there because they never get past the first phase. After playing two games they probably prefer the Kanji pieces, but that is not happening.
Shogi is a better game than chess. Chess has been played out a long time ago. White needs to play to win, black needs to play to draw, and most top level games are draws. In the future we will probably think of it like checkers. Shogi is a much better game when you consider first move advantage and number of drawn games, owing to the drops. Even Xiangqi is a slightly better game than chess, but the difference is not big enough to create an interest that is comparable to that of western chess in the west. We have tried adding drops to western chess but Crazyhouse doesn't work out well because the pieces are too strong so it's over in 15 moves. Shogi is unique and clearly the next step in the evolution of chess.
So I think any effort to promote Shogi in the west is good and that people should keep creating these westernized Shogi pieces so people can get past phase 1 and actually try the game.
I know of a few ones, but there are probably more:
* Dobutsu Shogi in the Greenwood. I even got the kids to play Shogi with this set, but of course it is for children. They love the dogs and cats et c. This is brilliant.
* Hidetchi's set is great and intuitive for western chess players with the familiar bishop, rook, pawn et c. It was a good choice to choose new graphics for the gold and silver generals, which even indicate how they move. Very thoughtful.
* This version is very nice too. I like the idea to distinguish west from east (bishop design). Also very thoughtful.
* Shogi.cz has westernized Shogi pieces composed of the single Kanji on top of the piece's movement pattern. It should be familiar for Shogi players and understandable for new players.
* There was also a figurine chess set called the Eurasian chess men. Interesting experiment but I have never tried them.
I don't know what's best. I guess the market will eventually decide. Maybe this is not even as big of an obstacle as we imagine and it will eventually reach the west in its traditional form (which is the best scenario in my opinion but it doesn't seem to be happening).
Another thing that slows down Shogi adoption in the west is that there are relatively few Shogi resources in English. Maybe this is the biggest obstacle. I really appreciate Hidetchi's videos and the few websites that have Tsumeshogi. The few resources that exist (including 81dojo) make a huge impact.
Comparisons can also be made with the adoption of Igo in the west, but there we had the advantage of a western version not already existing, so it was probably easier.
> OH brother. It's because of people like captbirdseye that the international shogi community is as small as it is today...
I never bothered responding *directly* to this offensive and insulting calumny from some-one who apparently can't accept any-one presuming to disagree with him. However, today I have a few spare minutes in my busy schedule, and I'm feeling a bit liverish, so:
Utter crap!
The reason that "...the international shogi community is as small as it is today..." is because the aspiring Shogi player is put off by the constant repetition of the tired old cliche about kanji being too difficult for non-Japanese to learn. In my experience, this was, is, and always will be complete garbage.
This idea is put about by folks who are too frightened/lazy/dumb/unmotivated/patronising to learn a few unfamiliar symbols from a different culture (min. 8/9, max. 14/15).
These folks clearly suffer from some form of inferiority complex, and deal with that complex by talking patronisingly about 'the average person', and by indulging in 'displacement activities' such as inventing joke Shogi pieces which they then try and palm off on the emerging international Shogi community. Needless to say, these joke pieces (and the misguided wretches who promote them) are a complete waste of space.
From a personal point of view, I regard this sort of criticism from a member of this self-appointed 'elite' of patronising clowns as praise of the highest order - clearly, my disparaging remarks about these tatty joke Shogi pieces have got them worried.
This is my Shogi 'Badge of Shame' - I will wear it with pride...
> > OH brother. It's because of people like captbirdseye that the international shogi community is as small as it is today...
>
> WRONG! ! ! ! ! ABSOLUTELY W-R-O-N-G!!!
You're right - of course he's wrong! All the promoters of these stupid, childish, joke sets are wrong.
They are wrong because they are apparently unable or unwilling to accept the fact that the 'average person' (mentioned in one of this guy's earlier posts) is more than capable of learning a few 'strange' symbols!
I have been interested in Shogi for over 50 years, and I suppose I have been 'promoting' Shogi, albeit at a low-ish level since the early 1990s when I published what was (I think) the first Shogi web page in the world.
I have **NEVER** encountered a single person who had (or thought they would have) any difficulty learning to use proper Shogi pieces. Sure, it would take a few games to become familiar with the pieces, but the effort involved is nothing like that involved in (say) learning a musical instrument or a foreign language.
I believe that the oft-repeated claim that kanji are too difficult for non-Japanese to learn is complete rubbish, and this belief has always been supported by my experience with 'new' players...
I believe that the folks who promote these joke Shogi pieces simply can't be arsed to learn a few strange symbols, and assume that the rest of us suffer from the same lack of motivation. I firmly believe that the 'average person' is a little brighter than these self-appointed, super-intelligent, god-like beings would have us believe (don't they just **love** to patronise and condescend to the rest of us?).
Unfortunately, these folks believe their own propaganda, and have set forth on a messianic quest to convince the rest of the world that their tawdry, cheapjack attempts to fix something which ain't broke constitute the only true gospel as far as Shogi is concerned.
Anyone who has the temerity to question these zealots is accused of hindering the spread of Shogi outside Japan. If it weren't pathetic, it would be funny...
I repeat, I firmly believe that the 'average person' is more than capable of learning a few kanji, and looks on learning the kanji on Shogi pieces as a bit of a challenge - and also 'good fun'.
> OH brother. It's because of people like captbirdseye that the international shogi community is as small as it is today...
WRONG! ! ! ! ! ABSOLUTELY W-R-O-N-G!!!
My first approach at Shogi was earliest in the 1990's, when as teenager i was watching "Ranma 1/2 ( aka, Ranma nibun no ichi)" Started before I knowing anything else about, "Manga (comic from Japanese artist), Anime" or so on. Otaku, nor even differentiate Japan from China (as many people stil now days... TT__TT )
was not until late in 2006, when finaly thanks to another Manga "Naruto" where we finally find trace of Shogi, and learned the VERY BASIC ESSENTIAL rules of how pieces move.
so, distinguise the kanji caracter on every piece, associatin his movements, and START PLAYING it ( nothing more! NOTHING of Strategy on openings?! o_0
... middle Game o_0? ?_? ... )
Yeah, at these times ( between 1995-2006 ), I was pretty much aware of Japanese Culture, as I started participating in a Young Entity to promote MANGA and Anime.
So, since I learned how to play, and find myself with NO ONE to play With ... I just take the path to start promoting it with just a "PRINTED VERSION OF KANJI Sets" games, in Manganime /otaku Conventions I was attending, collaborating in organising, ( as I still doing at Hyper Japan's here in London).
from just me ( as the ones who one teach me the rules stop playing it... ) I started promoting it slowly but constantly ... we are now in over few year a bunch of 30 - 40 regular players.
So, what i find why shogi isn't so much popular in occident...
A) Lag of facility to BUY a Shogi set, rather than if it is "Westernised" or Traditional one with the Kanji.
Every "toy Shop" you go you will sure find a Chess set, even Stationery Shops can sometimes had have a basic Chess set ... TT__TT
How it will be compared to the amount of people who have heard about shogi ??
B) Even more than HALF of Japanese people I meet, In Spain, or here in England, DOES NOT KNOW HOW TO PLAY SHOGI. and got really SURPRISED than I do!
How funniest sound it?
> OH brother.It's because of people like captbirdseye that the international shogi community is as small as it is today...
Ouch! That hurt! :-) At least it was brief - unlike the drivel put forward promoting this disaster...
OH brother. It's because of people like captbirdseye that the international shogi community is as small as it is today...
81Dojo Web System
CouchTomato (1053) 2019-06-18 08:38
