25: nexxogen (1453) 2017-01-03 00:25

@Berni

2. Wiki isn't mentioning any Vikings. But who cares? :D

3. Don't worry about that part. :) Of course, the phone interface will have to be different, but that's only a matter of Unity scenes. It doesn't change the code in the background whatsoever. There's not any unknown factors when it comes to controlling shogi-like games via touch so it's pretty straightforward.

24: Berni314 (1694) 2017-01-03 00:14

@nexxogen

1. Intersting to know - maybe I should take a look again at it.
At least the web-interface (shogiwars.heroz.jp/s) is not translated to English (clicked from https://shogiwars.heroz.jp/?locale=en).
By the way, in your first post you wrote "Shogi Wars has no-byoyomi time controls only": it still has also 10s byoyomi!

2. I'd read about vikings.  ;-)
(But haven't done serious search.)

3. Being portable is one thing - DOING it is an other (big) step.
It must be fit to different screen sizes, also on desktop it's best used with mouse, while on phone and tablet it's used by touch, maybe also many people prefere portrait format, ...
So many programs are ported to android which makes no fun there, for example Battle for Wesnoth is a nice game on Desktop, but I can't feel any joy on even a big (10") android tablet (to tell only one of them).
Also I have to say, that I'm still not happy with the 81dojo android app. There is so many text in this thread, that maybe Hidetchi wouldn't read this unlovely words. ;-)

4. I'm not 100% sure:
The web-app is written in flash.
The android app uses AIR (which is based on flash), so obviously containing also much of the same code.
Still may experience about flash and AIR is 0%.


By the way: your writings made me thinking a little bit about my shogi.
My last played game is long, long ago. Also I like watching others playing, this is also long (but not such long) ago.
Maybe thinking about it could also help getting (new) players. But I fear, I'm not such a typical shogi-person, which behavior can be transfered to others. ;-)

23: nexxogen (1453) 2017-01-02 22:15

@Berni

That's OK, since it's only my way of viewing things and I'm not trying to influence his.

1. Actually, Shogi Wars has been translated and now English is available. Also, in the screen just before the game starts where you see your opponent, the name of their favorite strategy has been translated pretty well too. Somebody did a good job.

I haven't tried Shogi Quest and yet and I will. I agree about the rest.

2. Actually, I think it's an Anglo-Saxon thing if we're to be super specific. And as you said, it makes no difference.

3. I would distribute to all of them. :) That's the beauty of Unity, it's portable to many platforms due to Xamarin's 'Mono framework'. Theoretically, it could be ported to PlayStation and XBOX as well, although I wouldn't really go that far. The only stepping stone is iOS since in order to build anything for it, you must have a Mac computer (which I don't) and you also need to have an Apple Developer Account which you have to pay for.

Do you know what the current mobile 81Dojo client was built in? I see a lot of possibilities for improvements there.

22: Berni314 (1694) 2017-01-02 21:26

Hi nexxogen,

interessting post (last one @Hidetchi), but I'm afraid by far too long for Hidetchi to read.

Causing me also something to say:

1) often, there was spoken about "Shogi Wars" as alternative
If I'm not wrong, Shogo Wars is only in Japanese and so I wouldn't suggest it to beginners.
I told I know about 7 sites focusing for android, so I'll make a short brief:
- Shogi Wars (as told) only Japanese, a lot of players, but childish, disturbing scrolling things
- 81Dojo ...
- Shogi Online, looks promising, but also only Japanese, terrible 3D shadows
- PlayOK - by far too less players
- Dr. Shogi - terrible optic, only android
- 24Dojo - on android only 1 game per day for free
and
- Shogi-Quest - simplest registration possible ever,  multidevices, English, edit position, but no chat
Maybe you should think about suggesting "shogi-quest" instead of shogi wars, at least for Nonjapanese people?
Oh, by the way: shogi-quest is the only shogi-site with a separate grade-system - maybe also help to motivate

2) "kneeling when they propose to their girlfriends"
It's not an American thing, it's an Europe thing, long time before america was discovered
Yes, I know - it makes no difference to that what you like to said.

3) You told, you'll do your client in unity
For which OS you'll distribute?
Windows, Android, Linux, ...?

BCM

21: nexxogen (1453) 2017-01-02 02:19 (Edited at 2017-01-02 05:48)

@Kupo

You would be surprised by how much of a difference a seemingly insignificant change can make when it comes to games. I'm not claiming that things would change a lot after some modifications are made, but leaving things exactly as they are isn't even giving any chances for them to improve.

Also, I'm not sure why you think anyone would have to give up playing chess in order to play shogi. One can play both without problems. 

20: Kupo (2030) ☗6☗9☗72017-01-02 01:26

I don't think that the technical side of 81Dojo is much of a problem when trying to get new players into the game. 

First of all people tend to prefer playing board games IRL, even if they play a few games online they easily lose interest because of limited chances for offline play.

Secondly, it's very difficult to attract chess players. They will often show some interest in the game, maybe even participate in tournaments, but at the end of the day they have invested so much time into chess that they will just keep playing it instead. Also it's much easier to find opponents offline with chess so they don't have much of a reason to switch game.

For those few players that actually want to play online I believe the main issue is how easy it is to get a game against an equally strong opponent. But the only way to fix that is to have a server with lots of beginners. Outside of Japan there aren't many beginners and Japanese beginners will most likely go to a Japanese focused server. Automated matchmaking is very nice but it also requires many users to work well. That won't be fixed just by improving the UI a bit and I highly doubt the greetings are an issue, it's not like you get kicked if you don't greet someone.

In my opinion the best way is just to direct people to Shogi Wars and 81Dojo because they are both great tools with different purposes.

19: nexxogen (1453) 2017-01-01 20:16 (Edited at 2017-01-04 16:29)

@Hidetchi

Is OK, we're all human and it's sometimes hard to keep the emotions out of the picture. Also, it's hard to articulate an argument well in a couple of short sentences. I wish I could make all this brief, but I don't know how to do it and still get my point across, so this one will also be pretty long unfortunately. I understand you don't have a lot of time (I don't either for that matter), so if you can't read long posts, I won't blame you.

You mentioned a hypothetical devoted promoter overseas so let me speak from experience. Although my enthusiasm has significantly subsided, I was at one point very keen on bringing shogi to my country, which has a rich chess tradition. My texts that included shogi were published in the chess section of the Serbian national newsletter, and I've also published some texts on the most popular chess website in Serbia. I also made a video in Serbian to explain the basic shogi rules and I have a Facebook group with the "Play" button linking to 81Dojo. During previous years, I've communicated with a lot of people who were among other things asking me where to play online, and I directed all of them to 81Dojo. Facebook also notifies me of clicks on the Play button, which happen sporadically. 

Out of all those people, there's just one chess player who actually spent some time playing on 81Dojo. We sometimes play in real life, and he's the only one I managed to get. Also, he's an anime fan and knew about shogi even before he met me, so he's not your average person with no ties to anything Japanese. There also was one chess player who I really hoped would stick. He is an IM and a GM mating problem solver, one of the best in the world actually. A couple of years ago, he went to Japan to participate in a chess problem solving tournament where the hosts organized a demonstration of shogi. He actually played Dobutsu shogi against Madoka Kitao and played regular shogi against someone else. It doesn't matter how I found out about this and met him, but we did meet and we actually played in person one time. I tried to get him to play on 81Dojo several times, but he never did, even though he showed a lot of interest and even had me come to his chess club and bring shogi. However, that was the last time I saw him and I eventually lost all contact with him.

All this made me lose my enthusiasm quite a bit. SC24 is absolutely not an option for new players, and Shogi Wars only lets you play 3 games a day for free, and paying for game subscriptions is unfortunately not an option for most people in my country. That's why I see 81Dojo as pretty much the only entry into the shogi world, not just for my countrymen, but for any other place that doesn't already have shogi established in some form. I wanted to get at least 4 people who were somewhat serious and then try to contact the Japanese embassy and ask for some sort of support. But I never managed to.

The other thing that bothers me is the fact that the online international community is pretty much on life support. 81squareuniverse was small, but the new forum is even smaller. There still isn't nearly enough material in English to be found. I just have the feeling that the community hasn't grown at all, but actually shrunk.

Those are the reasons I started this topic. I was speaking from a fully technical standpoint as a game developer - how to make the 81Dojo experience smoother for new users. The things I said aren't all necessarily what I would want for myself. I have no problem whatsoever with greeting my opponents at the start and at the end of the game. What I don't like are the illegal moves, and the fact that checkmate isn't registered, but as I said in my original post, none of those is a major thing. What I was trying to say is how all of the things I pointed out are making the experience less smooth for new players and that it might be the reason why they aren't sticking. But then you explained that just getting a lot of new players isn't really the goal of the site. I wish it was, but if it's not, then it's not.

I see you misunderstood what I meant by "shogi must adapt to the world", and that's because I didn't clearly explain what I meant so it's my fault. I didn't mean that shogi in Japan should change. I think traditions are very important because they define cultures and we must keep them no matter what. I'm profoundly annoyed that people in my country now dress up for Halloween, that we now have "Black Friday" sales and that people started kneeling when they propose to their girlfriends. Those are all American things, and why on Earth would we want to do that? We have our own traditions which define us. So of course I don't think Japan should change anything about its shogi culture. I was only talking about the way it's promoted to foreigners and what the emphasis is being put on. Now, you might argue that even then, shogi should be promoted not just as a game, but as a culture, and that of course is your personal philosophy which you have the right to, but I'll try to explain my philosophy as food for thought. Don't take this as an attempt to change your opinion, because I'm not trying to do that.

I don't know whether you're a baseball fan or not, but I assume you would agree that modern Japan wouldn't really be the same without it. It is an integral part of its culture. It has brought so many emotions to your nation. So much happiness, and so much sadness. So many kids have grown up looking up to their baseball heroes. It has inspired stories and movies and other forms of art, and it really shaped Japan in a way. I'm not a baseball fan, but I understand that American culture surrounding baseball and the Japanese equivalent are vastly different. Here's a read for anyone interested in details: http://www.umich.edu/~wewantas/brooke/differences.html. Now, imagine if Horace Wilson wasn't only interested in teaching you the rules of the game, but insisted that you must accept the American culture with it, or otherwise you'll spoil their beloved game. Do you think that baseball would have caught on in Japan in the same way? Maybe, but only because the people of Japan would still mold it according to their own culture, since you can't stop that. But if by some miracle you actually could have had prevented them from doing it, there would be no baseball in Japan today, and none of the things I listed would have happened. And what a shame and a loss that would be. The reason why it happened was because Wilson said: "Let me teach you this fun game. Here are the rules. Now go play." :) The culture eventually grows around the game but it gets derived from the already existing culture of the nation. And in every country that embraces the game, that surrounding culture is somewhat different. That's why when they play against each other, it's not just a clash of two teams, but also a clash of cultures, and that's what makes it great. Even shogi itself is not entirely a product of Japanese culture, but instead the end result of a process where a game that was created in one culture was then shaped and changed by other cultures until it reached its final stage which is arguably the best game in the entire chaturanga family. Yes, shogi became what it is in Japan, but without chaturanga, there would be no shogi. This is what sharing creates and I firmly believe in it. I hope you understand where I'm coming from, even if you don't agree with me. This is just my philosophy and I'm not trying to impose it on anyone else.

I will just quickly touch on using games to teach manners to children. Teaching your kids decency is something that depends on a lot of variables. Games are good tools for this of course, but if other variables are lacking, I don't believe that any single game could make up for that. Manners are generally important, and are mostly a product of your close social environment. As I said, shogi can be a good tool to teach them, but so could any other game where you lose to an opponent and must accept it, no matter how complicated it is. There's nothing specific about shogi that makes it better for this purpose than any other competitive game. But this is a separate topic and I don't want to spend time on it.

As for Japanese judokas and fans getting fed up by seeing the blue gi at IJF tournaments, I just think it's silly. If there's a reason for this better than "we think it's ugly" and "judogis are traditionally white", I'd really like to hear it, because otherwise it's really not a good argument. Traditions are important as I said, but for the country they belong to. The reason for introducing the blue gi was, as you know, very practical - so that the audience can differentiate the players from afar. I doubt anyone is forcing the Japanese federation to require blue gis in domestic tournaments. Complaining about what IJF does would be like if the Americans complained about FIBA not having NBA rules. People have different ways of doing things. There's nothing wrong with that.

I hope I explained my position in an understandable way. As I said, I'm not trying to change your opinions or tell you what your goal should be. I'm simply explaining the reasons why I wrote my original post.

I would really appreciate that manual. I hope there aren't any time limitations or anything, because I have very little time away from work, so it would take a while to finish it.

Best regards.

18: nexxogen (1453) 2017-01-01 17:10

@Berni

Yes, that's a good point. But I would still be willing to make a client, just because I think that if I would want to see a better interface and a smoother experience, I should try do it myself instead of expecting other people who aren't doing this for any money, to do it.

17: Hidetchi (1891) ☗10☗5☗102016-12-30 21:57

Hi nexxogen, I really have limited time and honestly couldn't read you guys' posts word by word; First I'm very sorry if I sounded too offensive, I apologize. But I was really disappointed by the long speech ending up suggesting removing greetings and resigning based on totally wrong assumption to begin with. (This is really where ShogiWars becomes harmful...) Anyway I will probably do a long one too.

You said you understood the real goal. It sounds much better now, but I think you still don't get it. Looks like you only think about the site's getting someone. But there are more. Some examples: (1)A devoted shogi promoter overseas found a new guy who he could tell about shogi, he wants the guy to experience what shogi is like. He can recommend 81Dojo and the guy can see the people (Japanese) play shogi and feel the real atmosphere. Even if he doesn't ever come to 81Dojo again, we helped this promoter provide the real experience. (2) 81Dojo is the only server that can host tournaments like WSL. (3)Say, some people had difficulties in figuring out subtle points in the rules. They go "Let's check how 81Dojo does it". 81Dojo is always there to be the right "reference". (4) People can communicate well with Japanese people through many functions and have chance to understand more about real shogi world.
The roles of 81Dojo are everything that people would see troubles in, if 81Dojo disappeared today and only ShogiWars remained. Likewise, everything people would see troubles in, if ShogiWars disappeared today and only 81Dojo remained, are the important values of ShogiWars. Both are needed and they have strong points and weakness, have to be selected properly.
And I kind of have a feeling that you think 81Dojo itself is my prime activity, and it has its independent goal? Actually it's only one of the tools that plays a role in the portfolio I have to achieve such goals of my whole projects.

Whether it's successful or not, my opinion is not important. You should go ask the shogi players out there in Europe. Ask them if it helped a lot or not.

I don't understand you still stick on Point 5. Adapt shogi to the world??? (Basically,) no way. If we need to adapt it casual to spread overseas, then I wouldn't stick on international promotion anymore. Then we Japan would keep this treasure for our own and won't give it to you guys. But we still want to do everything to help people who want to touch this treasure and promote this treasure as it is. Do you know Japanese judo players and fans feel fed up with seeing the blue uniform they use in Olympics? Adapt shogi like that? Please. No thank you.
Of course there are exceptions. For example, do we allow chairs to be used while playing? We already know the answer is clearly toward yes. (I mean even Japanese do so.) My internationalized piece design; this is not fully appropriate, but I use it while giving utmost care not to let it mislead people, because it is too effective to abandon. (ShogiWars is a lot lot more effective, so it means we need a lot lot more care.)
But greetings and resigning??? Please, that's one of the most important things in shogi. I regret I could not emphasize that enough in my videos... Maybe it's my fault. Why do Japanese parents let the kids learn shogi? Not only because mind sports do good for the brain, but also it teaches you manners, courtesy, and the strong mentality to be able to declare one's own defeat. (I'm not saying I myself always have good courtesy, as you already saw.)

Even though I'm not working for numbers, the more is the better, of course. You are definitely right about that point. So things should be changed as long as they don't harm the philosophy too much. So Facebook login and board scaling suggestions will be (even have been) of course studied.
I think Berni said something about the shogi-server. Yes, anyone can try to develop a client, and I will license it if it meets the standards. I can give the protocol manual anytime.

Very sorry for the e-mail; if it was brief I must have read it. I don't know why I didn't respond. Perhaps there was a reason or something.

16: Berni314 (1694) 2016-12-30 21:28

(One part of) philosophy of 81dojo is to lose by illegal move.
So there can't be any other client, which prevent make illegal moves - that would be anfair.

I believe there were already sometime the suggestion that for official tournaments the 81dojo-client have to be used, while any other can be used for "normal" play. Also rejected ...